April 22, 1977
“Kup’s Show” aka “The Irv Kupcinet Show” hosted by Irving Kupcinet started life in 1952 as a Chicago-based 15-minute interview show titled “At Random.” At the height of its popularity, the show was syndicated to over 70 stations throughout the United States. The series garnered 15 Emmy Awards along with a Peabody Award before ending in 1986. Unlike “Donahue” and “Oprah” – two other Chicago talk show successes – there was no studio audience and no phone phone calls were taken. Thanks to the host’s connections, the show still succeeded in attracting a wide array of celebrities from the world of film, television, sports, and politics.
Irving Kupcinet aka ‘Kup’ (Host) was born in 1912 in Chicago, Illinois. After attending college on a football scholarship, Kupcinet was drafted by the Philadelphia Eagles in 1935. His football career was cut short by a shoulder injury, which led to a job as a sports writer. He also wrote a short “People” section. It officially became known as “Kup’s Column” in 1948, distributed to more than 100 newspapers around the world. Histelevision career began in 1952 and in 1957 he was a fill-in host for “The Tonight Show.” In 1988, Kupcinet published his autobiography, Kup: A Man, an Era, a City. He died in 2003 at age 90.
GUESTS
Lucille Ball was born on August 6, 1911 in Jamestown, New York. She began her screen career in 1933 and was known in Hollywood as ‘Queen of the B’s’ due to her many appearances in ‘B’ movies. With Richard Denning, she starred in a radio program titled “My Favorite Husband” which eventually led to the creation of “I Love Lucy,” a televisionsituation comedy in which she co-starred with her real-life husband, Latin bandleader Desi Arnaz. The program was phenomenally successful, allowing the couple to purchase what was once RKO Studios, re-naming it Desilu. When the show ended in 1960 (in an hour-long format known as “The Lucy-Desi Comedy Hour”) so did Lucy and Desi’s marriage. In 1962, hoping to keep Desilu financially solvent, Lucy returned to the sitcom format with “The Lucy Show,” which lasted six seasons. She followed that with a similar sitcom “Here’s Lucy” co-starring with her real-life children, Lucie and Desi Jr., as well as Gale Gordon, who had joined the cast of “The Lucy Show” during season two. Before her death in 1989, Lucy made one more attempt at a sitcom with “Life With Lucy,” also with Gordon, which was not a success and was canceled after just 13 episodes. Ball previously appeared on “Kup’s Show” in 1970.
Earlier in the evening of April 22, Lucille Ball was honored by the Notre Dame Club of Chicago with their Excellence in Entertainment Award. Her mother, Dede, accompanied her to the ceremony.
Otto Preminger was born in the Ukraine in 1905 and came to America in 1936 to direct a play on Broadway. In 1937 he started directing in Hollywood and by his career’s end had been nominated for three Academy Awards. Interestingly, Otto Preminger was Producer of the Broadway incarnation of the play Critic’s Choice, which Lucille Ball and Bob Hope made into a film in 1963. He received screen credit in the film. In 1966, he made a rare appearance on “Batman” as arch villain Mr. Freeze. Preminger died in 1986.
At the end of the interview, Kup says that Preminger has a new film coming up, based on the life of Moshe Dayan. This film never came to pass.
Elizabeth Ashley was born Elizabeth Ann Cole in Ocala, Florida, in 1939. In 1959, she moved to New York and starred in plays off and on Broadway, eventually being nominated for three Tony Awards. Her television career began in 1961 and she is probably best known for her role in “Evening Shade” (1990-94) which earned her an Emmy nomination. Ashley played roles on “Mission: Impossible” and “Mannix,” both filmed by Desilu Studios.
At the end of the interview, Kup says that Ashley is appearing in the play Vanities at Chicago’s Drury Lane Theatre.
David Mamet was a Chicago native born in 1947. Starting off as a writer and performer, Mamet first gained acclaim for a trio of off-Broadway plays in 1976: The Duck Variations,Sexual Perversity in Chicago, and American Buffalo. He was awarded the Pulitzer Prize in 1984 for Glengarry Glen Ross. Mamet’s style of dialogue, marked by a cynical, street-smart edge, precisely crafted for effect, is so distinctive that it has come to be called ‘Mamet speak.’ Mamet and actress Lindsay Crouse were married in 1977 (the year of this interview) and divorced in 1990. He has also written screenplays, books, and poetry.
At the end of the interview, Kup says that Mamet has American Buffalo playing on Broadway and has new play called The Water Engine opening May 11. [This was the Chicago production. In December 1977 the play opened on Broadway.]
The Kup’s Show coffee cup seen in the opening credits is also used by the guests for their beverages. Lucille Ball and Elizabeth Ashley smoke frequently during the interview. All four guests are on the stage at the same time for the full hour. There are no commercial breaks, film clips, or still photos used. Unlike network shows, this program included some mild expletives and talk of sex, something not common on television in 1977.
A week before this interview (April 15, 1977), Lucy was interviewed by Dinah Shore on her syndicated talk show “Dinah!”
[Note: The first eight minutes of this interview have been lost. The author’s comments are in brackets.]
The topic is whether Lucille Ball would be a success in 1977 as she was in 1951. The other panel members all think Lucy would be just as big a hit now as she was then. She says that she’s done two or three specials [“Happy Anniversary and Goodbye” in 1974, “Three For Two” in 1975, and “What Now, Catherine Curtis?’ in 1976] and that they haven’t been all that successful. Viewers and networks seem to want Lucy to return to the sitcom format, but she feels conflicted. Mamet says he watched Lucy growing up. She says “I hope so!”
Lucy says that if she was taking her show for the first time to (say)
Freddy Silverman… (thumbs down gesture). Preminger insists if Lucy made a good show, Silverman would be the first to hire her. Lucy says that he actually wanted to be the first one to fire her, getting rid of the “oldies” like Jack Benny and herself. Kup interjects to tell viewers who Silverman is, telling them he was an executive with CBS, then ABC. [A couple of years after this interview, Silverman moved to NBC, where he actually hired Lucy. In the special “Lucy Moves To NBC” Silverman was played by Gary Imhoff, above left.]
Kup turns his attention to David Mamet, whom he says has a lot of foul language in his plays. Kup asks him to justify it. Mamet pauses for a moment and Preminger steps in to say “If the people he’s writing about talk like that, why shouldn’t he use it?”
Kup mentions The Moon is Blue (1953) and The Man with the Golden Arm (1955) as controversial Preminger projects. He is anti-censorship in a free society. For The Moon is Blue Preminger says he had to go to court to defend the use of the words ‘virgin,’ ‘pregnant,’ and ‘seduced.’ Lucy is about to tell the story of when she was expecting on television and couldn’t use the word
‘pregnant,’ but Preminger interrupts and the conversation takes another direction.
Lucy: “We see the lines outside porno theatres, and we see a nice family picture with two or three people going into the theatre.”
Mamet mentions a 1976 book by Chicagoan Bruno Bettelheim called The Uses of Enchantment. [The book later inspired playwright James Lapine and composer Stephen Sondheim to create the 1987 musical Into The Woods.] Mamet compares violent fairy stories with violence in television and films. Mamet’s point is that the fairy stories assert that despite violence and unrest, good will triumph in the end, which (he says) is a false premise. Preminger says “If people don’t want to see violence they can turn off their sets.”
Lucy infers that a film like Jaws (1975) is too violent. Preminger says he doesn’t think it is a particularly good picture.
Ashley calls violence on television is a “cheap thrill” and bemoans that the medium doesn’t go for the “better thrill;” such shows as Lucy’s sitcoms, “The Honeymooners,” and “Mary Tyler Moore.” She asks Lucy if finding good writers and material isn’t the hardes thing to do. Mamet says good writers get no support from producers and distributors because “they can’t sell it.”
Preminger (to Lucy): “How can a woman with your success be so bitter?”
Lucy(taking a pill): “I’m not bitter, darling. I’m very grateful for what I have.”
Preminger:“Everything you’ve said here is bitter.”
Lucy: “Oh, you’re full of it. (slaps his hand)
Ashley:“Bullshit,Otto.”
Kup says Lucy’s been quoted as saying that her success is one of the biggest flukes in show business. Lucy clarifies that it happened as a fluke. She wanted to get out of pictures and have children. Television just happened to come along at the right time. She remarks on the intimacy of television with the fans and says she loved being ‘typed.’ Kup says that in Desi’s book [A Book], Desi said that he still loves Lucy.
Kup asks Ashley if she fears growing old. Ashley admits to being 37. She says that she went into retirement for five years from age 25 to 30 and became a Beverly Hills housewife. “My career was shopping and lunch.” She returned to work at 30 in order to support her child after her divorce. She says that she’s doing the same play [Vanities by Jack Heifner], that Lucie Arnaz did in Los Angeles. Kup reminds Ashley that she did a lot of lousy movies, too.
Ashley: “They packed me up and sent me off to the happy farm before I retired.”
Lucy: (chiding her) “That was your own idea. I remember that. You wanted that.”
Ashley: “Oh,yeah. I mean I was a 23 year-old actress and what you’re supposed to have is a nervous breakdown.”
Lucy: “You wanted to go back to the womb and rest.”
Kup: “Is that true?”
Ashley: (with an indifferent flip of her hair) “Sure.”
Kup directs his next question to Mamet, asking if “it all starts with the written word.” He calls himself a ‘method writer’ who writes in terms of actions. He learned how to write from being an actor first. Kup quotes Mamet saying that the women’s movement turned his head around. Ashley agrees that it was a cultural assumption that after motherhood women had no worth. Kup quotes from Preminger’s book: “Only two kind of women survive in Hollywood – those who are dominated by men and those who behave like men.”
Kup wonders why Preminger doesn’t write about his big fights with Lee J. Cobb and Dyan Cannon. Preminger reluctantly explains that while making Exodus (1960) Cobb could not remember 14 lines in the presence of hundreds of extras so Preminger filmed the scene in pieces. At the end, he asked Cobb to do all the lines together and Cobb refused. Preminger sent him home and cut the scene with the takes he had. Regarding Dyan Cannon, while making Such Good Friends (1971), Preminger says she would come late and sometimes leave the shoot mid-set requiring all her make-up to be reapplied while others waited. Preminger called her out for her non-professionalism. Kup says the fight was reportedly about Preminger superimposing her head on another woman’s naked body, an accusation he refutes.
Lucy says that she’d be scared to work for Preminger but she’d still like to work with him. [It becomes clear that Lucy is getting impatient with Preminger’s many excuses for his poor reputation. While he is speaking, she noisily roots around in her purse for something and conspicuously pours a glass of water.]
Kup credits Preminger with proving that “all black shows” like Porgy and Bess and Carmen Jones could be successful on screen. Kup also credits Preminger with putting screenwriter Dalton Trumbo’s name in the credits of Exodus despite him being blacklisted for communist affiliations.
Lucy talks about the time she herself was accused of being a communist in 1953, nearly being blacklisted as well.
Preminger: (about Mamet, who has been quiet) “While we are talking here, he is writing a play.”
Kup asks Ashley if she has changed since her youth. She says that her life has turned out pretty much the way she wanted, despite not feeling accepted. She says that she’s now working again and happily married after years of sexual dissolution.
Ashley: “You know how you spend years of your life in a sexual frenzy?”
Lucy: “I didn’t. I’ve been married all my life.”
Ashley: “I spent some time on the streets having an absolutely wonderful time behaving like a tart and a slattern for years. Maybe I got it out of my system.”
Lucy: (covering
her face and turning away) “Oh, Elizabeth! You did not!”
Lucy claims Ashley is embroidering her past and won’t believe it. Lucy insists that the most Ashley ever did was carry a protest sign. Lucy concedes that she feels motherly toward Elizabeth.
Kup asks Lucy if she would ever consider writing an autobiography. Lucy says she has had several unauthorized biographies of herself so she has no plans to write about her life.
Lucy:“You can’t tell the truth until you’re 85 and I don’t want to live that long.”
[After Ball’s death in 1989 at age 77, an unfinished manuscript for an autobiography was found by her husband, Gary Morton. The last entry was dated 1964, so apparently Ball had already written her life story, but decided not to finish it or publish what she had written. It was finally released in 1996 under the title Love, Lucy.]
Kup observes that others have typified Lucy as a strong-willed person. Lucy denies this. She says that things boil inside her for a long time. She admits to having “a short fuse.” She says a reputation of being “strong-willed” comes from her longevity in the business. About her children, Lucy says her son shows “attitude” and that her daughter “is much more outgoing.”
Kup mentions that Lucie Arnaz will be seen in the new film Billy Jack Goes To Washington and that Desi is about to make Robert Altman’s A Wedding starring Carol Burnett and Lilian Gish. [The film was shot in and around Chicago and featured uncredited performances by many Chicago-based theatre actors like Laurie Metcalf, Gary Sinese, John Malkovich, Terry Kinney, and Joan Allen.] Lucy says that she’s glad she took Lucie and Desi Jr. out of school and put them on her show [“Here’s Lucy”].
Kup and Mamet talk about the origins of his new play The Water Engine. Mamet says it is an old story that was the basis for the Alec Guinness film The Man in the White Suit (1951).
Kup talks about a Mamet quote in the newspaper: “Almost everything we’ve been taught is wrong” (ie; religion, marriage, and allegiance to the state.) Mamet defends his position by saying those tenets are conscriptive. Preminger agrees with the playwright’s point of view. Ashley chimes in to question institutional values like marriage without strong convictions and morality behind it.
Lucy says the written word is failing young people and giving them a sense of hopelessness. Preminger tries to interject, but Lucy slaps his hand again “No, not yet!” Mamet defends his profession.
Mamet: “Are you accusing me of being hopeless, Lucy?”
Lucy: “Yeah.”
Mamet:“Quite the contrary.”
Preminger asks Mamet how the population could survive without some sort of government. Mamet provides a complicated and somewhat convoluted analogy to a particular poker game, ending with the idea that government was based on a good idea, but that idea has been buried under masses of other ideas rendering the original useless.
Preminger: “I must confess that the whole conversation has gone over my head. I really don’t understand it. (to Lucy) For once, I’m on your side.”
Ashley chimes in to talk about the nature of ‘greed’ and the Bill of Rights. Mamet talks about greed after the apocalypse. [I’m not making this up!]
Before wrapping up, Kup politely corrects Ashley’s earlier statement that the phrase “government of the people,by the people, for the people” is not from the Constitution but was said by Abraham Lincoln in the Gettysburg Address.
Lucy: “Didn’t it get into the Constitution in any way?”
Kup: “No.”
Kup apologizes to Mamet for starting out with a discussion about the foul language in his plays, which he says was brought up by critic Clive Barnes.
Mamet:“You cast me as the iconoclast, Kup. Anything I can do to serve you, is my
great pleasure.”
This Date in Lucy History – April 22nd
“Country Club Dance” (ILL S6;E25) – April 22, 1956
“Lucy and the Runaway Butterfly” (TLS S1;E29) – April 22, 1963
Papermoon Loves Lucy 
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